A lot of straight men are uncomfortable with the idea of homosexuality or finding themselves in a situation where they need to check everything a gay man tells them for sexual innuendo. God knows why but it creeps them out. That said, most of these men will not go out of their way to beat up homosexuals in shady alleys, you know? This shit is not black and white. Yes, bigoted comments are douchey, but raging at the kid about homophobia will not solve anything. Hell, in my experience, raging at any straight male who finds homosexuality "weird", "creepy", "sick" or something in-between will only send them into a defensive rage, and then there you are, snarling at each other like animals. I'm sure there has to be a solution, but I'm also sure it does not involve "beating sense" into anyone, literally or figuratively.
Me:
I definitely agree it's a kneejerk kind of reaction from my straight male friends too, and also this: "It's sad, it's a fucking shame, but that's how it is."
But I don't think that makes it okay, even if that's how it is.
Passive homophobia, to me, is still homophobia. Even if they aren't going out to beat people up or try to make gay people feel discriminated against or vulnerable, their reaction still enforces the fact that homophobia is not the norm, and not acceptable. Their values will be passed on to their kids, to other people they know and associate with. It's not just about "that one gay friend they have that they're okay with", it's about an entire institution of homophobia and bigotry and prejudice that they're helping reinforce.
Is it okay for someone to burn a cross on someone's lawn as long as they don't hurt them physically? Is it okay to make homophobic jokes as long as you don't call someone a faggot to his face?
I don't think so. Obviously, not everyone agrees with me but... I don't think it's okay to be homophobic or racist or sexist as long as you are less homophobic or racist or sexist as someone else.
That all said, I do agree with your conclusion that "beating sense" into anyone is not really going to...work. As fondly as some people might dream of that.
A:
I saw a lot of comments which basically dismiss the relevance of social pressure and the knee-jerk, conditioned response of most heterosexual men at the mere mention of male homosexuality, and I just can't agree with that. My brother would probably act all weirded out around a gay person and possibly try to avoid them, but he would never, ever hurt them intentionally, be it in a verbal or physical way. It's sad, it's a fucking shame, but that's how it is. If we can't accept first that acceptance doesn't come to everyone naturally, then how can we call ourselves more accepting than them? :|
M:
If we can't accept first that acceptance doesn't come to everyone naturally, then how can we call ourselves more accepting than them?
This is very true. It's actually pretty hypocritical, to not accept the unaccepting for being unaccepting. But that said, if the target is the comment, then I don't see a problem. [...]
Me:
I sort of violently disagree with this statement: It's actually pretty hypocritical, to not accept the unaccepting for being unaccepting.
Why should I be accepting of a racist or a bigot? Why should I have to? "Oh, sorry, I understand you're raised that way, you can't help the fact that you're a homophobe or that you hate all black people or that you think women are naturally inferior to men. Sorry, I should respect your views as a an unaccepting bigot because you can't help being that way."
No.
I don't think it's hypocritical not to be accepting of bigots. That implies that there is no objective truth, that it all depends, that they might be right and their opinions should be given weight. I don't think they're right. I think they're wrong. And I don't want to accept their views.
C:
I like your reply, because that's the truth, plain and simple. To accept them is to give them the idea that their way of thinking is just as justifiable and proper as yours. And it gives them support to continue that way.
M:
It isn't to say that you need to be accepting of racism or bigotry, but I guess to be accepting of the fact that they are not always the ones who control their own viewpoint. I very much believe that we are shaped by the environment we grow up in. Of course we can change, of course there are some things we should realize when they slap us right in the face, but not everybody goes through the same experiences and some mindsets are more difficult to change than others.
That implies that there is no objective truth, that it all depends, that they might be right and their opinions should be given weight. I don't think they're right. I think they're wrong. And I don't want to accept their views.
[...]
For me, reaction can be just as important as the original action. I think it's much more beneficial for the relationship of both sides to say, "I understand you live in a society that thinks this, but why don't you reanalyze what you're saying and look at it from this point of view, instead." It's only when anyone adamantly refuses to even consider other options that I basically stop accepting them into my life, along with their opinions.
Me:
Maybe it's just semantics then, because the sentence "If we can't accept first that acceptance doesn't come to everyone naturally, then how can we call ourselves more accepting than them?" says to me very clearly that we should be accepting of the unaccepting or we will be hypocrites.
Yes, we should try to understand the context they exist in. Yes, society and environment is a huge factor. I'm not proposing that we all hate all homophobes forever (if I did, I would be hating my own family forever). I'm saying that while context is definitely important if we are trying to reach out to these people and help them understand, we should not accept their viewpoints as legitimate even if we know "where they're coming from". Because that means we're giving validity to the idea that gays are something to be feared, or whatever.
...in the end, I think we're actually agreeing on the point that we should acknowledge and recognize why they believe certain things. Mostly.
Then I start to question: why do we have to be so understanding and accepting and trying so damn fucking hard to educate ignorant people when they are the ones in the wrong? I shouldn't have to teach the privileged bigots why they're wrong.
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